FRAN KELLY:                          The vote on the Rudd Government’s carbon bills is almost certainly to be delayed now until August. That is exactly what the Independent Nick Xenophon wants. He’ll join us after 7.30 this morning to explain why. But this delay also suits the opposition which now says it will vote on the legislation in August when it comes back. But in all probability that vote will still not be one of support. Andrew Robb is the Opposition spokesman on emissions trading and he joins you now from Canberra. Andrew Robb, welcome to “Breakfast”.

 

ANDREW ROBB:                    Thanks very much, Fran.

FRAN KELLY:                           Andrew Robb, the Coalition is opposed to this ETS legislation. Why vote for a delay? Why not just vote this legislation down now?

 

ANDREW ROBB:                     Our view is that every opportunity that the Parliament gets, that we get, that industry gets, that other groups get to further examine this flawed legislation is a good thing and it will hopefully lead ultimately to good policy. At the moment it is very bad policy it is going to, if carried through, would most certainly lead to tens of thousands of jobs lost and yet no reduction in emissions in the country. What a stupid situation to find ourselves in!

 

FRAN KELLY:                          So the Coalition will support Senator Xenophon for a delay until August, for a delay in this vote until August. What does that achieve though?

 

ANDREW ROBB:                     That does give us further opportunity; I mean, industry is working very hard. The second thing is that in the United States there is a lot of progress being made on their own bill and of course they are the elephant in the room when it comes to emissions. They’re thirty percent or more of the world’s emissions. What they do will dictate what happens around the world. We’ve said now for months that it is just common sense to wait and see what they do, what largely the shape of their bill will be because if we too far out ahead of that bill, which it looks like we are, all we will do is put our businesses at a very serious competitive disadvantage and that’s just madness for a country that produces just over one percent of the worlds emissions.

 

                                                  So any time we get to delay this legislation until Copenhagen and until the US further advances their bill and until we do some work here, some further work here that the Government refuses to do, all of that will shape a much better policy in the future.

 

FRAN KELLY:                          Okay so just trying to get this clear for people listening and trying to understand what’s going on with this legislation now. The Coalition plans to still vote this bill down in August. Is that right?

 

ANDREW ROBB:                    If the Government doesn’t substantially address all of the concerns that everyone, from the Greens through to business, the concerns they have with this legislation, this bill is friendless I might tell you. The only people who supported it are some members of the Government and not all of the members of the Government do. If those concerns are not addressed we will vote against it in August but this delay gives even more time to put pressure on the Government, expose the very flawed element of this policy that they’ve put in front of the nation and to try and get some common sense into this whole debate.

 

FRAN KELLY:                           Well the Government, of course, says the delay being forced by the Coalition is all about schisms on your side and the Prime Minister said yesterday “This vote not to vote shows a lack of leadership”. Is Malcolm Turnbull having trouble harnessing unity?

 

ANDREW ROBB:                     No, that’s not true. That is not true. The fact of the matter is that business overnight have welcomed this delay, again to try and get this policy right. No one sees the need for it. Even the UN and United States leadership have both said there’s no need to go to Copenhagen with legislation.

 

We’ve given the Government support on targets to take to Copenhagen so that there is a national view when we go to negotiate the path forward on this issue at Copenhagen. There is no need for it. The Government has delayed the start date effectively to 2012 so there is no need in a practical sense. This is just pure and simple politics. The Government is trying to wedge the Opposition, is trying to rush through a program for purely political purposes. They want to get to an early election because they’re so fearful that the consequences of this $300 billion plus debt that they’ve now imposed on the nation will become apparent to people and they will suffer in a political sense. So this is just dripping with politics.

 

FRAN KELLY:                          We read today that Malcolm Turnbull is fearful of an early election too and there’s also talk of division within your ranks over an immigration bill to be introduced today. A handful of coalition MPs say they will cross the floor on that, the night before last some crossed the floor, disagreed with the Coalition’s position on alco-pops. This suggests disarray in the Coalition parties.

 

ANDREW ROBB:                    No, no, no, no. These are important issues. Some people have got differing views but the decision of the Party Room is given expression in the Parliament, in the House of Reps and in the Senate by our Party and we are very actively and effectively, I think, keeping the Government to account.

 

FRAN KELLY:                           Is the Party united behind Malcolm Turnbull?

 

ANDREW ROBB:                    Absolutely.

 

FRAN KELLY:                          Can I just ask you a couple of brief questions on the whole ute-gate affair? This investigation into the Treasury bureaucrat, Godwin Gretch. Was Godwin Gretch the Coalition’s mole?

 

ANDREW ROBB:                    No, no, no. Look the members of the opposition, and it was true of the Labor Party when they were in Opposition, have extensive dealings with public servants. It is the way business is done. So just the fact that people have had an associate with Godwin, he’s been a senior public servant, he’s like many, many others. You have constant contact and you get advice and you get briefings and all the rest, so all these long bows are being drawn.

 

FRAN KELLY:                          So you have had contact with Godwin Gretch for instance, over…

ANDREW ROBB:                    No I don’t know Godwin. Many public servants I do know but I haven’t had dealings in the Treasury side of things.

 

FRAN KELLY:                          Were you at all involved in the discussions within the Coalition at presumably a very high level to go based on this e-mail that apparently existed? That we now know to be fake?

 

ANDREW ROBB:                     Well, look I don’t want to get into who’s talked to who. I’m a member of the team but all sorts of people were consulted in terms of what’s happened. And what has happened is clearly, and a big question mark remains, a huge question mark, over Wayne Swan. I mean this is being shuffled into the background but the evidence that came out of the Senate on Friday was enormously damaging to Wayne Swan and he has favoured a crony and yet he told the Parliament that everyone was treated equally on an issue of great consequence.

 

FRAN KELLY:                           But Andrew Robb if the Treasurer can be proved to have favoured a crony, the Opposition can have been proved to have made an attack on the Prime Minister based on a fake email. Will you now accept the Government’s call for all correspondence between the Coalition and Malcolm Turnbull and Godwin Gretch to be released?

ANDREW ROBB:                    We have said all along that we would co-operate in any way with any inquiry. We’re not in the dock on this thing. The fact of the matter is this came out of Treasury; this is Mr Swan’s Department. Came out of Treasury and we did say and Malcolm Turnbull had said that the contradiction between the evidence given at a Senate hearing on Friday and what the Prime Minister had been saying in the Parliament had to be clarified or there would be serious consequences for the Prime Minister. Now the Federal Police have now clarified that contradiction.

 

FRAN KELLY:                          And can you confirm...

 

ANDREW ROBB:                    That is now behind everybody. But what has not been clarified, what has not been sorted out is the fact that Wayne Swan was found out on Friday in a big way and he’s been ducking and weaving ever since. And he must come straight with the way in which he has mishandled the whole management of that OzCar program.

 

FRAN KELLY:                           And just very briefly can you confirm though that the Opposition has had leaks from Godwin Gretch before?

ANDREW ROBB:                    No I can’t, it’s not an established fact at all. That’s ridiculous.

 

FRAN KELLY:                          Thank you very much for joining us on “Breakfast”.

ANDREW ROBB:                    Thank you, Fran.